*** Logfile started *** on Wed May 16 08:04:45 2007 [Wed May 16 2007] [08:04:45] Join You have joined the channel #xiphmeet (n=sping@unaffiliated/sping). [Wed May 16 2007] [08:04:45] Topic The channel topic is "Xiph.org meeting channel | http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/MonthlyMeeting200703". [Wed May 16 2007] [08:04:45] Topic The topic was set by fishkandy on 03/07/2007 02:44:22 PM. [Wed May 16 2007] [08:04:45] Mode Channel modes: no messages from outside [Wed May 16 2007] [08:04:45] Created This channel was created on 11/26/2006 07:43:32 AM. [Wed May 16 2007] [08:06:04] Hi all [Wed May 16 2007] [08:06:10] hello [Wed May 16 2007] [08:06:25] Join _Ivo has joined this channel (n=chatzill@87-196-212-213.net.novis.pt). [Wed May 16 2007] [08:06:44] Topic kfish sets the channel topic to "Xiph.Org meeting channel | http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/MonthlyMeeting200705". [Wed May 16 2007] [08:06:59] _Ivo: hi [Wed May 16 2007] [08:07:12] <_Ivo> hey Sebastian; you did come [Wed May 16 2007] [08:07:41] yes :-) [Wed May 16 2007] [08:07:51] hi [Wed May 16 2007] [08:08:27] <_Ivo> hey [Wed May 16 2007] [08:08:39] hello silvia [Wed May 16 2007] [08:08:46] <_Ivo> so, everyone, good morning/afternoon/night [Wed May 16 2007] [08:08:51] moin [Wed May 16 2007] [08:09:05] <_Ivo> hello conrad [Wed May 16 2007] [08:09:10] <_Ivo> the agenda is here, http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/MonthlyMeeting200705 [Wed May 16 2007] [08:09:23] <_Ivo> please give it a look so we may start [Wed May 16 2007] [08:09:38] <_Ivo> (expecting JM, Monty and Ralph to maybe join meanwhile) [Wed May 16 2007] [08:13:04] <_Ivo> siilvia seems to have edited the agenda for March by mistake [Wed May 16 2007] [08:13:23] <_Ivo> the extension and MIME type discussion is already added on May's agenda [Wed May 16 2007] [08:13:49] hi everyone [Wed May 16 2007] [08:14:10] sorry, yes - I edited whatever was in the topic :) [Wed May 16 2007] [08:14:48] <_Ivo> there's no problem with that [Wed May 16 2007] [08:14:56] just fixing it now [Wed May 16 2007] [08:14:57] <_Ivo> so, anyone up to chair the meeting? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:15:01] * nessy is at work and slightly distracted [Wed May 16 2007] [08:15:17] _Ivo, you're doing a great job :-) [Wed May 16 2007] [08:15:32] <_Ivo> ha ha, ok [Wed May 16 2007] [08:15:41] _Ivo: go on [Wed May 16 2007] [08:15:54] * nessy agrees [Wed May 16 2007] [08:16:05] <_Ivo> let's wait a bit and see who else joins [Wed May 16 2007] [08:16:18] is monty coming? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:16:20] Join imalone has joined this channel (n=ian@bb-87-81-240-193.ukonline.co.uk). [Wed May 16 2007] [08:16:25] I hear rillian may be in transit [Wed May 16 2007] [08:16:36] hi imalone [Wed May 16 2007] [08:16:52] <_Ivo> hi Ian [Wed May 16 2007] [08:17:10] is anyone logging this? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:17:44] hi [Wed May 16 2007] [08:18:40] <_Ivo> kfish: I can do that [Wed May 16 2007] [08:18:57] kfish: i guess my client does, since XX:06 [Wed May 16 2007] [08:18:58] <_Ivo> I won't have a place to host it, though [Wed May 16 2007] [08:19:19] _Ivo: good to have backup [Wed May 16 2007] [08:19:27] _Ivo, on the wiki :-) [Wed May 16 2007] [08:19:43] <_Ivo> we usually link to a .txt file [Wed May 16 2007] [08:20:00] kfish: don't we have previous logs in the repository? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:20:10] <_Ivo> if you post a text log on MediaWiki directly, you have to spend half an hour fixing the formatting [Wed May 16 2007] [08:22:56] ok, wanna start? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:23:07] <_Ivo> I suppose so [Wed May 16 2007] [08:23:30] <_Ivo> the first topic is regarding Google Summer of Code Students [Wed May 16 2007] [08:23:38] <_Ivo> is anyone here tutoring someone? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:23:46] yeah, me and derf [Wed May 16 2007] [08:23:49] derf: awake? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:24:07] ok, so we have two GSoC students [Wed May 16 2007] [08:24:19] the GSoC program starts May 28 [Wed May 16 2007] [08:24:26] currently they are in preparation mode [Wed May 16 2007] [08:24:44] <_Ivo> alright [Wed May 16 2007] [08:24:46] what tasks did they apply for? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:24:50] <_Ivo> what will they work on? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:24:52] gah, we have 3 GSoC students [Wed May 16 2007] [08:25:17] Ishaan Dalal: Sinusoidal coding for Ghost (mentor: Monty) [Wed May 16 2007] [08:25:36] Andre Luiz Nazareth da Costa: Hardware implementation of Theora decoding (mentor: derf) [Wed May 16 2007] [08:25:53] Nicholas Mudd: Web-based streaming audio playlist manager/scheduler (mentor: kfish) [Wed May 16 2007] [08:26:21] the theora hardware guys have been very active, the assigned project is pretty much done already before starting, so they are expanding the scope or so (afaiu) [Wed May 16 2007] [08:26:42] <_Ivo> that's great. I have seen some work on the wiki for a while now [Wed May 16 2007] [08:26:48] i don't know how the ghost student is going / started, though there's much ghost activity going on [Wed May 16 2007] [08:27:13] and i haven't heard from nick mudd yet -- so i sent him an email this morning to ping him [Wed May 16 2007] [08:28:23] <_Ivo> What is the third project, exactly? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:28:41] a playlist manager for icecast [Wed May 16 2007] [08:28:53] with ... mashupy .. stuff [Wed May 16 2007] [08:29:20] <_Ivo> ah? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:29:39] hopefully we can use that to get some better integration with web standards [Wed May 16 2007] [08:29:48] <_Ivo> hopefully [Wed May 16 2007] [08:30:02] <_Ivo> the second topic may take a little more time to discuss [Wed May 16 2007] [08:30:07] has he started yet? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:31:11] nessy, who? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:31:17] <_Ivo> mudd [Wed May 16 2007] [08:31:31] no, no contact yet [Wed May 16 2007] [08:32:31] :( [Wed May 16 2007] [08:33:03] <_Ivo> has anyone read the "xiph-oggless" proposal, which we are to discuss next? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:33:25] * nessy shakes head [Wed May 16 2007] [08:33:33] the mplayer docs? yes [Wed May 16 2007] [08:34:08] <_Ivo> kfish: what is your opinion about it? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:34:15] yes, but not enough to have an opinion [Wed May 16 2007] [08:35:10] * sping neither [Wed May 16 2007] [08:35:18] * nessy is only worried that it may be inconsistent with ogg or annodex encapsulation [Wed May 16 2007] [08:35:19] <_Ivo> it would be great if we would decide either to endorse this or not [Wed May 16 2007] [08:35:39] <_Ivo> this issue has been brought up some times before, so there's an interest in using Xiph codecs outside Ogg [Wed May 16 2007] [08:36:03] I think it needs input [Wed May 16 2007] [08:36:03] <_Ivo> and to make sure such implementations are compatible between each other, we should say which way we rather see it happen [Wed May 16 2007] [08:36:13] tarkin is mentioned [Wed May 16 2007] [08:36:23] what's a summary of the difference between the two proposals? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:37:08] <_Ivo> they are from the same people [Wed May 16 2007] [08:37:16] <_Ivo> and see more or less the same [Wed May 16 2007] [08:37:28] <_Ivo> the one in SVN is far more complete though [Wed May 16 2007] [08:37:40] <_Ivo> see = seem [Wed May 16 2007] [08:38:30] kfish: since you read it - is there anything you think is not ok from a xiph perspective? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:38:42] well, only that it's not ogg [Wed May 16 2007] [08:38:49] other than that, it's fairly straightforward [Wed May 16 2007] [08:39:11] smash the headers together, and look for their magic markers to pull them apart again [Wed May 16 2007] [08:39:36] that's all it discusses though [Wed May 16 2007] [08:39:44] it doesn't cover timestamping through the stream [Wed May 16 2007] [08:40:18] if we were to endorse or produce any document about this, i guess we'd have to say how to transform from ogg to other formats and back again [Wed May 16 2007] [08:40:40] <_Ivo> yes, I agree [Wed May 16 2007] [08:40:51] which can't be done losslessly (ogg is a lossy container wrt. timestamps), but at least we could specify what to do [Wed May 16 2007] [08:41:39] <_Ivo> kfish: would you be interested in working on this at some point? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:44:16] i don't have enough knowledge of other containers -- perhaps we could work together with the mplayer guys or something [Wed May 16 2007] [08:44:20] in principle, sure [Wed May 16 2007] [08:44:39] <_Ivo> I'll try to get in touch with them, then [Wed May 16 2007] [08:45:01] <_Ivo> Ralph did put some input on the intial proposal, as seen in http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/vorbis-dev/2006-July/018505.html [Wed May 16 2007] [08:45:57] <_Ivo> no mention, though, on Ogg transformations [Wed May 16 2007] [08:46:25] <_Ivo> I'm afraid I have not enough knowledge on Ogg internals to help out in this task [Wed May 16 2007] [08:47:01] <_Ivo> shall we move on? The next issue is regarding the recent MIME/extension discussion [Wed May 16 2007] [08:48:03] <_Ivo> just a last point on the "xiph-oggless" subject, Monty has said on e-mail that: [Wed May 16 2007] [08:48:10] <_Ivo> "Sure. I'm for offering a blessing, but I want to avoid getting sucked [Wed May 16 2007] [08:48:12] <_Ivo> into battles involving competing specifications that we don't have [Wed May 16 2007] [08:48:13] <_Ivo> anything to do with. That's not an official worry, just a practical [Wed May 16 2007] [08:48:15] <_Ivo> one. If there's clear defacto-consensus behind an outside mapping [Wed May 16 2007] [08:48:16] <_Ivo> spec, I have no problem endorsing it." [Wed May 16 2007] [08:48:32] <_Ivo> so, it does make sense to contact the mplayer/ffmpeg people [Wed May 16 2007] [08:49:42] if you put kfish and the mplayer guys together, that could help? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:50:33] <_Ivo> If Conrad intends to contact them, it's alright. If not, I may contact them myself and then direct them to Conrad. [Wed May 16 2007] [08:51:56] <_Ivo> alright, moving on, what does everyone here feel about the current extensions and MIME types proposal? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:52:51] i like it ;-) [Wed May 16 2007] [08:53:06] ditto [Wed May 16 2007] [08:53:30] <_Ivo> as I understand, we need to register the new MIMEs? e.g. audio/ogg [Wed May 16 2007] [08:53:42] not everything is clear yet [Wed May 16 2007] [08:53:49] .oga and .ogv are clear [Wed May 16 2007] [08:54:02] .ogg is still under discussion [Wed May 16 2007] [08:54:18] nessy, well, .ogg is already registered ;-) [Wed May 16 2007] [08:54:56] <_Ivo> well, .ogg is a file extension [Wed May 16 2007] [08:54:57] the mail discussion at the end was about making .ogg for vorbis I files only and deprecating everything elses [Wed May 16 2007] [08:55:08] <_Ivo> yes, I agree with that [Wed May 16 2007] [08:55:11] and making a .ogx for random ogg container files [Wed May 16 2007] [08:55:20] then we have to change that RFC [Wed May 16 2007] [08:55:21] ah ok, that sounds good [Wed May 16 2007] [08:55:24] but it's do-able [Wed May 16 2007] [08:55:37] my iriver would be happy with that [Wed May 16 2007] [08:55:56] without changing the RFC and conformant to everything we have ever said before, .ogg would be possible for any ogg files [Wed May 16 2007] [08:56:14] <_Ivo> yes, most players can only cope with .ogg and the majority of the Ogg files in the wild are Vorbis [Wed May 16 2007] [08:57:28] so, what I'd really like to know is whether there is software that expects flac in .ogg or theora in .ogg and breaks otherwise [Wed May 16 2007] [08:57:39] <_Ivo> very little [Wed May 16 2007] [08:57:45] nessy, nothing we can't fix (much) [Wed May 16 2007] [08:57:53] <_Ivo> there's few or no theora hardware decoders yet [Wed May 16 2007] [08:57:56] no hw players? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:58:00] <_Ivo> and much less for Ogg Flac [Wed May 16 2007] [08:58:02] flc? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:58:18] lots of hw for flac, not for ogg flac [Wed May 16 2007] [08:58:21] ok, then we can safely deprecate .ogg for anything but vorbis I [Wed May 16 2007] [08:58:31] <_Ivo> most or even all hw players for FLAC, expect FLAC by itself [Wed May 16 2007] [08:58:36] i think that would cause the fewest surprises [Wed May 16 2007] [08:59:02] ok, so what do ppl think about .ogx for random ogg files? [Wed May 16 2007] [08:59:09] elite [Wed May 16 2007] [08:59:21] multitrack hacked up shit ;) [Wed May 16 2007] [08:59:22] :-) [Wed May 16 2007] [08:59:39] <_Ivo> I find it alright [Wed May 16 2007] [09:00:28] ok, so we have three new extensions [Wed May 16 2007] [09:00:36] * nessy can fix up the wiki [Wed May 16 2007] [09:00:57] mime-types then will be: [Wed May 16 2007] [09:01:03] .ogx - application/ogg [Wed May 16 2007] [09:01:11] .ogv - video/ogg [Wed May 16 2007] [09:01:16] .oga - audio/ogg [Wed May 16 2007] [09:01:49] <_Ivo> I agree with these [Wed May 16 2007] [09:01:50] .ogg - audio/ogg+vorbis ? [Wed May 16 2007] [09:02:11] .spx - audio/ogg+speex ? [Wed May 16 2007] [09:02:16] ok, and lets spec these out as "Ogg Audio Profile", "Ogg Video Profile" etc., concerning how to deal with multiple tracks etc. [Wed May 16 2007] [09:02:34] nessy, the /ogg+ stuff seems right [Wed May 16 2007] [09:02:59] sounds good [Wed May 16 2007] [09:03:16] <_Ivo> I'm not sure about that [Wed May 16 2007] [09:03:18] somebody needs to fix that old rfc and add these [Wed May 16 2007] [09:03:22] <_Ivo> every one of those would have to be registered [Wed May 16 2007] [09:03:26] _Ivo: which part? [Wed May 16 2007] [09:03:35] <_Ivo> the ogg+whatever [Wed May 16 2007] [09:03:37] _Ivo, it's doable in one RFC [Wed May 16 2007] [09:04:02] _Ivo: the ogg+whatever stuff is only for very specific things [Wed May 16 2007] [09:04:09] <_Ivo> one RFC doesn't make a MIME Type endorsed by IANA, AFAIK [Wed May 16 2007] [09:04:14] and we can use the opportunity to fix that typo we found about page/packet numbering [Wed May 16 2007] [09:04:33] <_Ivo> it's just a concern, really. If it's doable, I'm for it [Wed May 16 2007] [09:04:34] in fact, it may not be necessary in the future any more because ppl will use .ogv and .oga [Wed May 16 2007] [09:05:00] _Ivo: one RFC does indeed make a MIME Type endorsed by IANA [Wed May 16 2007] [09:05:10] <_Ivo> oh [Wed May 16 2007] [09:05:13] that's how we got application/ogg endorsed [Wed May 16 2007] [09:05:15] <_Ivo> alright then [Wed May 16 2007] [09:05:19] * nessy wrote that rfc [Wed May 16 2007] [09:05:21] we can bundle the proposal together into one rfc, it's a registration [Wed May 16 2007] [09:05:24] <_Ivo> I'm aware [Wed May 16 2007] [09:05:30] :) [Wed May 16 2007] [09:05:39] we can also send a patch to the /etc/mime-types maintainers ;-) [Wed May 16 2007] [09:05:52] yes, I suggest we deprecate that old rfc (or both if necessary) and create a new one that is more comprehensive [Wed May 16 2007] [09:06:14] * nessy doesn't have much time atm, so anybody volunteering to help would be most welcome [Wed May 16 2007] [09:06:15] <_Ivo> silvia, will you work on this? [Wed May 16 2007] [09:06:34] <_Ivo> (this is a case of EFB) [Wed May 16 2007] [09:06:48] <_Ivo> alright, we'll talk about this later on the list [Wed May 16 2007] [09:07:17] I have to go unfortunately [Wed May 16 2007] [09:07:38] me too soon [Wed May 16 2007] [09:07:44] <_Ivo> damn, I'm afraid I'll have to leave in a few minutes as well [Wed May 16 2007] [09:07:49] l8r nessy [Wed May 16 2007] [09:07:56] Quit nessy has left this server ("This computer has gone to sleep"). [Wed May 16 2007] [09:08:12] <_Ivo> there's still a lot to discuss, what shall we do? [Wed May 16 2007] [09:08:21] * sping hopes there's an admin left when we come to xspf [Wed May 16 2007] [09:08:27] i've got one comment about the libao thing [Wed May 16 2007] [09:08:39] <_Ivo> kfish: please go ahead [Wed May 16 2007] [09:08:47] <_Ivo> sping: no one will be here [Wed May 16 2007] [09:08:57] <_Ivo> this is most unfortunate [Wed May 16 2007] [09:09:05] which is basically that if the guy wants to maintain it, he can have it it :-) https://trac.xiph.org/query?status=new&status=assigned&status=reopened&group=type&component=libao&order=priority [Wed May 16 2007] [09:09:22] <_Ivo> great [Wed May 16 2007] [09:09:26] no-one's maintaining it atm, it needs love [Wed May 16 2007] [09:09:29] <_Ivo> doe he have a SVN account? [Wed May 16 2007] [09:09:32] <_Ivo> does* [Wed May 16 2007] [09:09:42] <_Ivo> if not I'll contact Ralph [Wed May 16 2007] [09:09:53] :-) [Wed May 16 2007] [09:10:32] <_Ivo> I'll get in touch with the guy over the weekend, or so. [Wed May 16 2007] [09:10:56] <_Ivo> the rest of the agenda will be left undiscussed, I'm afraid [Wed May 16 2007] [09:11:04] <_Ivo> most sorry, Sebastian [Wed May 16 2007] [09:11:34] <_Ivo> Motherfish administration is mostly with Monty, or Mike, or Ralph [Wed May 16 2007] [09:11:39] <_Ivo> and none of them showed up [Wed May 16 2007] [09:11:57] * sping did get up earlier for this *sigh*, was fun to watch nevertheless [Wed May 16 2007] [09:12:04] :-) [Wed May 16 2007] [09:12:18] thanks for chairing Ivo [Wed May 16 2007] [09:12:28] <_Ivo> I'm happy you came for the first time [Wed May 16 2007] [09:12:34] <_Ivo> kfish: thanks, I like to help [Wed May 16 2007] [09:13:02] i am at xtech atm [Wed May 16 2007] [09:13:10] i will talk to the opera guys etc. about theora support [Wed May 16 2007] [09:13:17] <_Ivo> oh, that's great [Wed May 16 2007] [09:13:37] <_Ivo> I issued a request at WebKit for