--- Log opened Tue Oct 04 22:39:06 2005 23:00 -!- xiphlog [n=giles@westfish.xiph.osuosl.org] has joined #xiphmeet 23:00 -!- Topic for #xiphmeet: Next xiph.org monthly meeting 2005 Oct 5 06h00 GMT | please add to the agenda at http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/MonthlyMeeting200510 23:00 -!- Topic set by rillian [] [Mon Oct 3 12:39:50 2005] 23:00 [Users #xiphmeet] 23:00 [ Atamido] [ HackRip] [ illi ] [ jmspeex] [ nemo ] [ tris ] 23:00 [ derf_ ] [ homeas ] [ insoManiac] [ kfish ] [ rillian] [ xiphlog] 23:00 -!- Irssi: #xiphmeet: Total of 12 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 12 normal] 23:00 -!- Channel #xiphmeet created Mon Aug 29 04:34:00 2005 23:00 -!- Irssi: Join to #xiphmeet was synced in 0 secs 23:00 -!- [freenode-info] if you need to send private messages, please register: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup 23:01 -!- rillian changed the topic of #xiphmeet to: Next xiph.org monthly meeting 2005 Oct 5 06h00 GMT | please add to the agenda at http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/MonthlyMeeting200510 | live log at http://westfish.xiph.org/~giles/200510_meeting.txt 23:03 -!- MikeS [n=msmith@84.77.166.75] has joined #xiphmeet 23:08 -!- xiphmont [n=xiphmont@STARSHIP-SNOTFISH.MIT.EDU] has joined #xiphmeet 23:08 < xiphmont> hi hi 23:08 -!- homeas_ [n=kristien@80.Red-83-43-178.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #xiphmeet 23:09 < MikeS> Hey MOnty. 23:11 < rillian> shall we star? 23:11 < rillian> start? 23:11 < rillian> MikeS: thanks for sending the announcements 23:11 < MikeS> no problem. yeah, may as well start 23:11 < rillian> MikeS: you're chairing this time, right? 23:12 < MikeS> err. no 23:12 < MikeS> I'm not awake yet 23:12 < rillian> ha 23:13 < rillian> ok. first item is project reports 23:13 < rillian> I've been busy so haven't been keeping up 23:13 < rillian> we haven't done the vorbis+ogg releases 23:13 < rillian> but more bugs have gotten fixed 23:13 < rillian> especially thanks to mike and kfish! 23:13 < rillian> so that's good I guess :) 23:13 < rillian> derf_: what's new with you? 23:14 < derf_> I made some improvements to the theora-exp encoder architecture, including the ability to construct configurable encoding pipelines and basic API support for different encoding modes. 23:15 -!- homeas_ [n=kristien@80.Red-83-43-178.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:15 -!- homeas_ [n=kristien@105.Red-83-32-60.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #xiphmeet 23:15 < derf_> And I've turned a friend loose on making a simple constant-quantizer encoder as one of the modes. 23:15 < rillian> derf_: nice. any progress on the working encoder part? 23:15 -!- homeas [n=kristien@61.Red-81-38-169.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:16 < derf_> rillian: Well, that was to be step one (it's not really that hard, and you could've gotten a horribly ineffecient constant-quantizer encoder by changing one #ifdef before), but it's mostly supposed to be educational so he can get up to speed. 23:16 < derf_> Then we'll get down to the nitty-gritty of a CBR mode. 23:17 < derf_> I have some ideas how to proceed in this regard, but at the moment they are still just ideas. 23:18 < rillian> how big a window is this CBR mode? 23:19 < derf_> The buffer size would be application-defined. 23:19 < rillian> so it would work for fixed-size encoding for discs? 23:19 < derf_> You could make it as little as the size of one frame, but then you have to special case keyframes like VP3 does. 23:20 < derf_> rillian: Well, usually CBR is for streaming. For fixed-size encoding you want to do something two-pass. 23:20 < rillian> jmspeex: anything new with speex or ghost? how's the move .au? 23:20 < rillian> derf_: ok, you're just thinking about streaming. I just wasn't sure what you meant. 23:20 < jmspeex> rillian: Move went relatively well 23:20 < xiphmont> jmspeex has been working hard; I've not yet added much of anything. Still popping things off my own stack. 23:20 < derf_> The plan is to allow the library to expose enough information and control that an application could write its own two-pass routine. 23:21 < jmspeex> I've started working on Speex again. 23:21 < jmspeex> Next release should be out soon with several fixes and improvements to packet-loss concealment. 23:22 < jmspeex> As for ghost, I've played a bit with many parts (sinusoid estimation, wavelets), but it's still very vague. 23:22 < rillian> jmspeex: that includes the api change to the jitter buffer? 23:23 < jmspeex> rillian: the change for jitter buffer is basically a one line change that happens to affect the API. 23:23 < jmspeex> (it will likely change again before I release 1.2) 23:23 < rillian> sure. don't forget to update the library versioning though :) 23:23 < jmspeex> Now, I'm working on using the Vorbis psychoacoustic model on Speex so Monty and I can write a paper for AES in May. 23:24 < rillian> oh cool 23:24 < jmspeex> rillian: I haven't updated library version for 1.1 because I'm breaking it often (due to being unstable). 23:24 < rillian> does that mean we'll get some documentation on the vorbis model finally? 23:24 < jmspeex> monty says yes :-) 23:24 < rillian> the faq will be happy :) 23:25 < rillian> jmspeex: ok, that works too 23:25 < xiphmont> Yes. My next dev tasks are paper-writing :-) 23:25 < rillian> MikeS: you want to report on icecast? 2.3 was released. How's that going? 23:26 < MikeS> lots of bug reports, few of which get followed up on by the original reporter. 23:26 < MikeS> Quality generally seems ok, though there are some minor issues. 23:27 < MikeS> People seem happy with most of the new features, except that relaying is harder to use now. 23:27 < MikeS> But yeah - the big news was that 2.3 went out. 23:27 < rillian> someone reported that icecast was still scalable 23:28 < rillian> contrary to what I heard this summer 23:28 < MikeS> yeah, oddsock did some single-stream testing where it did pretty well (14 or 16k users in around 10-15% cpu) 23:28 < MikeS> we haven't done multiple streams, nor large-scale testing for non-vorbis streams 23:28 < xiphmont> It all depends on how good your net drivers are :-) 23:28 < rillian> maybe the problem is with multistream? 23:28 < rillian> could there be some contention problems? 23:28 < rillian> would be nice to see a multistream test too 23:28 < MikeS> xiphmont: yes. This was with gigE cards, I assume they do tcp offload. 23:29 -!- tris [i=tristan@camel.ethereal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:29 -!- tris [i=tristan@camel.ethereal.net] has joined #xiphmeet 23:29 < MikeS> rillian: yes, there are probably contention problems. Much of the locking done is "do it the easy way, not the fast way", since the fast way tends to be rather platform-specific 23:30 < rillian> well, there *is* a threading abstraction layer... 23:30 < MikeS> notably, things like taking mutexes around refcounting, rather than using appropriate atomic instructions\ 23:30 -!- homeas__ [n=kristien@92.Red-83-32-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #xiphmeet 23:31 < rillian> ok, hopefully oddsock will do the test so we have some idea. 23:31 < MikeS> And generally avoiding locking where possible. These would be easy things to fix, given resources on which to test the fixes, and some sign that the theoretical problems actually result in real-world performance issues 23:31 < rillian> still, great news on single-stream 23:31 < rillian> ok, anything else 23:31 < rillian> xiphmont has been working on his planarity thing 23:32 < rillian> if you have gtk 2.6 try it out :) 23:32 < xiphmont> That's not xiph stuff 23:32 < xiphmont> that's just stress relief :-) 23:32 < rillian> true :) 23:32 < xiphmont> and it needs gtk 2.8/cairo1.0 23:32 < rillian> sorry, I meant 2.8 23:33 < rillian> and it doesn't build out of svn either :) 23:33 < rillian> ok, anything else? 23:33 < rillian> next item is the website 23:33 < rillian> we made good progress I think, thanks to Nehal 23:34 < MikeS> rillian: it built from svn for me one or two days ago, but that's a bit offtopic 23:34 < rillian> vorbis.com and large parts of xiph.org are ported 23:34 < xiphmont> It builds fine out of SVN 23:34 < jmspeex> what's the status for speex.org? 23:34 < rillian> I have most of theora.org ported; I should have time to finish that and throw the switch this month 23:35 < rillian> jmspeex: atamido had most of it done a couple of months ago, iirc 23:35 < illi> re website: can i just point out again http://www.vorbis.com/setup/ and the use of directories names "banner"/ "banners" or anything similar with regards to many ad blocking software 23:35 < rillian> if I get motivated I'll complete and throw the switch, but no promises 23:35 < rillian> illi: right. apparently broken software breaks our layout 23:36 < rillian> Unfortunately, Nehal's been busy with school (I assume) so that's slowed down for now 23:36 < Atamido> rillian: It still needs to be changed. 23:36 < rillian> next item is: merging aotuv b4 and the opt-sort patch 23:37 < rillian> number 1 depends on monty I think 23:37 < Atamido> jmspeex, rillian: Here is what I had from Speex.org. http://speex.org.commo.de/ 23:37 < rillian> opt-sort could go in if someone wants to verify it's safe 23:37 < Atamido> It is all in SVN, so it mostly just needs to be transfered. 23:37 < rillian> xiphmont: any idea when you'd get around to looking at the latest aotuv? 23:38 < rillian> Atamido: maybe you could summarize what's missing? 23:38 < xiphmont> I got to look at b3 in some detail before 23:38 < xiphmont> No idea about b4, really. 23:38 < xiphmont> Probably falls into the docs splurge I need to do. 23:38 < rillian> Atamido: documentation is the important one I think 23:38 < Atamido> Speex.org, jmspeex doesn't like the logo, and a few pages such as "Documentation", etc. 23:39 < xiphmont> which logo is being used? 23:39 < rillian> jmspeex: what's this about the logo? you agreed it was ok 23:39 < rillian> I don't think it's as good as sheryl's either, but we want unified branding 23:39 < Atamido> Anyway, I haven't changed anything in SVN for this in quite a while. 23:39 < xiphmont> If we want it tweaked, we should talk to melissa. 23:40 < xiphmont> I'm not against changing it; I'm against just dropping the branding piecemeil. 23:40 < rillian> xiphmont: agreed 23:40 < rillian> (melissa is very busy with her day job lately though. I suggest we just use it as is and try and refine later if we're still unhappy) 23:40 < xiphmont> Also agreed. 23:41 < jmspeex> rillian: I just prefered the original parrot. If it's going to cause that much problem, let's just go with the new one and "fix" it at some point. 23:41 < Atamido> I would just like to point out again that I can't move the site into production. 23:41 < Atamido> Someone with authority has to do that. 23:41 < rillian> jmspeex: great 23:41 < rillian> Atamido: so if you could do the doc section, I'll make it live 23:42 < rillian> jmspeex: you wanted to keep speex.org as the primary site and not switch to xiph.org/speex/ is that correct? 23:42 < jmspeex> rillian: right 23:42 < rillian> ok, we have a plan :) 23:42 < rillian> next item: what's the state of the ogg2 transition 23:43 < rillian> same as it was a year ago I think 23:43 < xiphmont> yes. 23:43 < rillian> we need: parallel linkability 23:43 < rillian> and some api extensions iirc 23:43 < rillian> plus porting libvorbis 23:43 < xiphmont> ...but I can fix that in a week so long as we have release engineering ready. 23:43 < xiphmont> oh, paralell linkability is more than a week :-) 23:44 < rillian> xiphmont: yes 23:44 < rillian> xiphmont: oh, and while you're here, 23:44 < xiphmont> yes? 23:44 < rillian> fluendo suggested it would be nice to add a libogg call to change the default page flush size 23:44 < rillian> 4k is way too small for a lot of theora streams 23:44 < xiphmont> That has been planned since day 1 in fact. 23:44 < rillian> the question is where to hide the data so we don't break the ABI 23:45 < xiphmont> I also wanted to make that setting also available by time. 23:45 < MikeS> It's ugly to do it without breaking ABI, though. 23:45 < xiphmont> Why? 23:45 < rillian> MikeS suggested repurposing flags 23:45 -!- homeas_ [n=kristien@105.Red-83-32-60.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:45 < MikeS> xiphmont: because the structs it needs to live it are all public. 23:45 < xiphmont> I was pretty sure I have internal blackbos state for that reason. 23:45 < rillian> I suggested tacking an extra byte off the end of the lacing data, since that's opaquely allocated 23:45 < xiphmont> Oh. 23:45 < xiphmont> I can deal. 23:45 < jmspeex> Are there any plans on supporting speex in oggenc so I can start phasing out speexenc/speexdec? 23:46 < xiphmont> It's a minor problem with understandably large consequences. 23:46 < MikeS> ogg2 may be different, but nobody is using that, so that deesn't help. 23:46 < MikeS> jmspeex: sure, file a patch ;-) 23:46 < xiphmont> right 23:46 < rillian> xiphmont: any ideas or preferences? 23:46 < jmspeex> MikeS: So you mean it'll never happen? ;-) 23:46 < MikeS> jmspeex: I have no objections to adding codecs to oggenc, but I don't particularly intend to do it from scratch myself. 23:46 < xiphmont> I don't have the state in front of me. 23:48 < jmspeex> MikeS: speexenc/speexdec are a complete mess (I'm to blame) and that's why I don't really want to maintain them... 23:48 < illi> later this week, i am going to add a directory and a few windows build files into libogg, libvorbis, libspeex with updated project files for vs2003 23:48 < rillian> xiphmont: maybe take a look and get back to us? 23:48 < xiphmont> Yes. 23:48 < illi> does anyone have any objections before i do that ? 23:48 < rillian> illi: what's the directory called? 23:48 < illi> and create a new sdk solution project which externals to libogg/vorbis/speex 23:49 < rillian> jmspeex: we don't disagree. just someone has to volunteer to do the code 23:49 < illi> it will be inside the existing win32 directory called VS2003 23:49 < jmspeex> rillian: I know. 23:49 < jmspeex> BTW, there's been no Win32 release of Speex for a while. Any taker? 23:49 < rillian> illi: sounds fine. merging your build with trunk? 23:49 < illi> i want to do that too yes 23:49 < rillian> that would be swell :) 23:50 < rillian> illi: but yeah, please go ahead. We'll yell if there's something we don't like 23:50 < rillian> and thanks! 23:50 < illi> though it will mean having project configurations specific to my project (but won't be default) in the projects of vorbis and speex 23:50 < rillian> Final item: theora as a JPEG replacement 23:50 < rillian> One could do this, of course 23:51 < rillian> but I don't see any point 23:51 < rillian> there's nothing wrong with JPEG 23:51 < MikeS> I think whoever added this to the agenda was thinking of the Forgent stuff. 23:51 < kfish> what's that? 23:51 < jmspeex> rillian: I tought there were some vague patent threats about it. 23:51 < rillian> aside from the ambiguous IP issues with JPEG 2000, it's not being adopted because the compression isn't sufficiently better than baseline JPEG to warrent switching 23:51 < MikeS> In practice, JPEG is deeply entrenched everywhere, and theora would make a poor replacement anyway 23:52 < rillian> theora has the same problems 23:52 < MikeS> kfish: they're extorting tens of millions of dollars from various people based on very dubious patent claims on jpeg 23:52 < rillian> and doesn't have the multi-channel and lossless support JPEG 2000 offers which make it useful for special applications 23:52 < MikeS> last I heard, they'd collected $80M or soemthing 23:52 < rillian> second, I don't believe the Forgent thing will stand up 23:53 < rillian> they're going against many larger organizations with a bogus patent 23:53 < rillian> that's not going to last too much longer 23:53 < jmspeex> rillian: never underestimate the stupidity of US IP laws. 23:53 < rillian> jmspeex: and courts 23:53 < jmspeex> see Eolas 23:54 < jmspeex> of course 23:55 < derf_> The Forgent patent expires Oct. 6 of this year. 23:55 -!- JD9797 [n=javadev9@host175-176.pool8251.interbusiness.it] has joined #xiphmeet 23:55 < rillian> and the Forgent patent expires in another year or two, I think 23:55 < derf_> Which is, tomorrow. 23:55 < rillian> derf_: wired says 2006 23:55 < MikeS> ok, so we should propose theora as a jpeg replacement until tomorrow. done ;-) 23:55 < rillian> heh 23:55 < derf_> rillian: Groklaw and PutPat.org say this year. 23:55 < rillian> so yes, it's an option if things really go bad 23:56 < homeas__> why not ask people to add their nick to any points they add to the agenda ? 23:56 < rillian> but I don't expect it to be necessary 23:56 < HackRip> people telling JPEG2000 is not worth it obviously don't know much about image compression ... the difference between JPG & JP2 is even bigger than the one between mp4 & mp3 ... people just don't care ... but people are wrong 23:56 < rillian> homeas__: that would help 23:56 < homeas__> and have them be here to make their point. the meeting point is rather vague 23:57 < rillian> the people who made the additions were at least logged in 23:57 < rillian> but they're not always under the same nick 23:57 < derf_> HackRip: No, the point is that for single images, the size difference doesn't matter. 23:57 < HackRip> there is the same difference in efficiency between jp2 & jpg than between theora & dirac : huge 23:57 < derf_> JPEG is well-entrenched. 23:58 < derf_> Part of that is due to the fact that it requires no license. 23:58 < MikeS> HackRip: jpeg2k doesn't make a big enough difference to compensate for the fact that jpeg support is everywhere, and I've never seen jpeg2k support in any application. Or a jpeg2k file in the wild. JPEG gives you plenty of quality, it just costs a little more space. 23:58 < MikeS> and for still images, the space required is pretty small 23:59 < rillian> ok, that's it for our agenda 23:59 < HackRip> for a single image yes ... people should compare a dir of 1000 jpeg vs a dir of jp2000 at same quality ... then they would realize their mistake ... the gain is not in quality ... but in huge space saving ... 23:59 < rillian> does anyone have anything else? 23:59 < illi> i just have a general point 23:59 < illi> re the new website layout... 23:59 < illi> the windows setup... has resulted in about +500 downloads of oggcodecs per day --- Day changed Wed Oct 05 2005 00:00 < illi> now at about 50,000+ per month 00:00 < xiphmont> yay! 00:00 < derf_> Your months have a lot of days. 00:00 < xiphmont> I'll assume that's up not down :-) 00:00 < illi> no... now 50,000 total 00:01 < illi> not that 500/day = 50,000 00:01 < MikeS> HackRip: eh? The only place I ever see enough photos that are large enough to be annoying is from digital cameras. And the main reason for that is that they compress pretty minimally, JPEG can do far more. Your argument falls down. 00:01 < illi> so it's definately helping people find what they are looking for 00:01 < rillian> illi: great, and thanks for the numbers 00:02 < rillian> now we just have to get back up to the 75% of our bandwidth the tobias filters we taking two years ago :) 00:02 * Atamido has never done any real testing with jpeg and jp2 00:02 < rillian> ok, I think we're done 00:02 < rillian> we are adjourned 00:02 < rillian> thanks everyone for coming 00:02 < rillian> we now return you to regular discussion 00:02 < illi> 40-50Gigs is still a fair bit ! 00:02 < HackRip> no, you forget image based pdf scan ... which are 200 A4 resolution jpeg in a raw --- Log closed Wed Oct 05 00:02:45 2005